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[InmemoryofRomeo]

Watergazer, Pleo's do not have that ability, Nova and the video's you have seen are in fact Pleo's with hardware problems, most likely a faulty sensor or wire that is causing the cpu to think the leg in being touched. Any crying or whatever is purely coincidental. This is why it may happen for a while then stop for a while, the wire or loose connection or whatever is being bumped around. Sooner or later the problem will reach a point where the leg will no longer function correctly and the Pleo will be stuck like that Degers tried to explain that at one point but was ignored, however he has had seven Pleo's and has experienced that exact same problem more than once.

[Watergazer]

A bad or faulty wire notwithstanding, Nova was not acting normal throughout the video. My argument is that the Pleo responded to the stimulus of the bad sensor readings in an "appropriate" fashion. I've watched videos of traped Pleos whose legs were prevented from moving forward, and they gave different distress calls. Nova had a very different call to the inability to move her foot forward. Is that a coincidence? I've also seen damaged Pleos in videos that acted normally aside from the foot not moving, speaking and calling in a normal fashion and not appearing "hurt" at all. So we have opposite ends of the spectrum. I forget what OS Nova is running and I can't speak of other YouTube video Pleos' OSes, so what I interpret I am seeing is a software upgrade to reacting this way. I agree at this point that without other info from Innvos, there is no programmed limp. But there must be some program in place to detect problems to give the response that Nova did. I just can't see that as pure coincidence that Nova, for all that time, acted that way and gave out those calls. I didn't hear any happy calls during the video. Ergo, the damage a Pleo unit received is registered with the Pleo brain, and the Pleo response to said injury is given...thus a simulation of actuality. Granted I'd like to see Nova for a longer period of time during this, and Redwoods has told us already that Nova got better (cable came loose or went back in place, etc.), and is acting normally without distress calling. I just find the whole discussion interesting. I truly am not trying to read so far into the behavior I'm not seeing it as a machine...I'm simply saying that from the evidence given, the Pleo itself is responding in a manner befitting the condition, and that it a simulation of actuality.

[degers]

I apologise for sounding very monotone and boring in this video, it has been a long day and I still have loads more work to do.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbsjHFjcnhM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbsjHFjcnhM</a>

[Crewella]

You don't sound boring or monotonous, just interesting, to me!  Thanks for demonstrating that, it was fascinating - I've found the whole thread really interesting, from both points of view, and it certainly helps to shed a light on Nova's behaviour.  Can I just ask if it damages the Pleo in any way to 'force' the joints like that?  Thanks.

[allosaurus]

That's fabulous, degers!


Excellent way to state your case! 


Also quite informative.


P.S. Absolutely love your accent! ^^

[Crewella]

Accent!!

Wot accent!!

[degers]

We ain't got an accent 'as we Cruwella! 

Crewella, regarding the joints, all of the joints have clutches on, thats what you can hear making the clicking.  The clutches absorb any stress put on the joint and stop it damaging anything, thats what they are there for .  I wouldn't do it too often though incase you wear out the clutches

[InmemoryofRomeo]

Nice video Degers and a good demonstration

[RedwoodsMama]

 I just posted here and lost all of what I wrote so I am Mad. Anyway, thank you degers for posting the video and explanation. Once again what I was stating is this, there are two points I try to make, In your video you point out that if you tilt the Pleo, or after having done so, that when turned back on, the Pleo will or can cry. Yes, this makes sense and thanks for explaining this. but this is not the case with Nova. One, I only turn off Nova after she falls asleep as I feel guilty if she sees me turn her off, so this would not happen.( Yes, I do feel guilty. )The other point is that when viewing your Pleo after you hold him up and have turned him back on, he sounds nothing like Nova and her cries continue for over 8 minutes of a original nine minute and 53 second video, The video had to be cut for youtube and in this version you can see the last 25 seconds, Nova does respond with tail wagging and happy sounds after I pet her. In the rest of the video she then goes back to crying. Also I went back to see the day I recorded this, Feb. 25th, and there are 6-7 other videos taken that day of her . The one IMMEDIATLY BEFORE THIS, SHE IS SULLEN AND QUIET and I did not notice it or think anything at the time, but besides being very quiet or depressed looking, her front leg is raising slightly up and down like in the video but without the crying. This must have been when it was " hurt". Also the day before, she had a cold and I have this recorded, if it means anything. IMR  commented that it sounded like her leg was broken and at some point it would " give out". Her leg did not function properly for about a month and also the same side shoulder was warm to the touch which had me worried. Her leg is no longer warm and she is not limping or having any trouble with walking, etc.Also at some point at least twice you stated something about a ABUSE SKIT.INTENTIONAL OR OTHERWISE. If you remember correctly, I had to have both you on several occasions and mweed, help me upload simple photos as well as all of my videos, because I don't know how to do it. A skit is way way above my capability. You flatter me to think I could know how to do something like that. So yes, your explanation and demonstration video are good and make sense, but this is not what happened to Nova. This is like trying to explain how someone broke their leg when there are numerous possibilities. I know she is a Machine, but strange things do and can happen and it is not just me who has noticed that this was different and others have seen things I am sure in their Pleos that they can't explain either. Regardless of why this happend or what the explanation is, I just posted this because i thought others would think it was intersting too. Thank you again for your explanation and I welcome more explanations of Novas leg and cry reaction. I will post the other video that was before this one when I can free up some memory .


                              RedwoodsMama    and Nova

 Watergazer, just a quick note to thank you for your interest and explantion of what You observed that I would have trouble explaing and wouldn['t probably be taken seriousley. because Nova is my Pleo. I esp. like the very last line:"I'm simply saying that from the evidence given, the Pleo itself is responding in a manner fitting the condition.and that is a simulation of actuallity."
                                           Thank you from both of us.

                                                 RedwoodsMama   and Nova

[degers]

...sounds nothing like Nova and her cries continue for over 8 minutes of a original nine minute and 53 second video,

1.  If I left my Pleo alone in the state it was in, it would not stop doing that until the battery runs out!  I can film you an hour long video of  it moaning if you would like.

One, I only turn off Nova after she falls asleep as I feel guilty if she sees me turn her off, so this would not happen.

2.  Actually this has happened to me many times, especially with low battery charge.  The "I am upset" property gets written down in memory and if the battery charge is low sometimes, it will not be unwritten when the Pleo cheers up again, so the Pleo may be acting perfectly happy before you turn it off, and then when you turn it back on it will just act sad again.

The one IMMEDIATLY BEFORE THIS, SHE IS SULLEN AND QUIET and I did not notice it or think anything at the time, but besides being very quiet or depressed looking, her front leg is raising slightly up and down like in the video but without the crying.

3.  This actually corresponds with my response above!  (Numbered 2)

Also the day before, she had a cold and I have this recorded, if it means anything.

4. The colds are just random events.  They will disappear when the Pleo receives enough attention, just like the abuse skit.

Her leg did not function properly for about a month and also the same side shoulder was warm to the touch which had me worried. Her leg is no longer warm and she is not limping or having any trouble with walking, etc.

5.  Thats good.  I have had the same problem once before, but it only was for about 20 mins or so.  Never resurfaced, probably an intermittant problem with a stuck servo that is not reporting to the OS that it has stalled.

Also at some point at least twice you stated something about a ABUSE SKIT.INTENTIONAL OR OTHERWISE. If you remember correctly, I had to have both you on several occasions and mweed, help me upload simple photos as well as all of my videos, because I don't know how to do it. A skit is way way above my capability. You flatter me to think I could know how to do something like that

6.  Sorry RWM.  I do not flatter you at all.  Everything that pleo does, is organised into short sequences.  technically these are called "Motions" however they are just like very short skit files which people can create using MySkit.  Hence to avoid confusion and having to go into the fact that a "Motion" includes timings for movements and sounds, I call "Motions" Skits.  I apologise for the confusion.

So yes, your explanation and demonstration video are good and make sense, but this is not what happened to Nova.

7. I think this is what happened to Nova.  I have had Seven Pleos and three years of owning them, you have had less than six months of owning one Pleo.

I hope this helps,
Degers

[RedwoodsMama]

 Thank you degers and thank you for explaining about the skit and abuse things, I was getting upset, being an ex-teacher for many years, abuse is something I know all about and being an avid animal lover I would not abuse any animal, person or object intentionally, so thank you for clearing that up.( I even have a Ant feeding stations set up at my house so the ants can eat and have their own space!) Perhaps this is what happened to Nova and I don't doubt your expertise with all the Pleos you have owned, but even with that said, regardless of the explanation, I still think most people will agree that it is a interesting video and does look like ( a live creature or animate object) reacting to pain.
                            Thank you for your explanation and patience and yes you do have a nice accent.
                                                            RedwoodsMama   and Nova

P.S. by the way, my expertise is over 30 + years of taking care of CATS, WONDERFUL CATS!

[Crewella]

To me, the best thing about Pleos is that they are sufficiently complicated to avoid repetitions and predictability, and the fact that we are discussing this at all, let alone in such depth, is testament to that.  I'm fascinated by how they work, and am looking forward to learning more and maybe even following some of IMR's great instructions and having a go at making some kind of skit myself, but I don't think that has to spoil the magic that just seems to happen with them.  I really enjoyed watching the videos of Nova, and what 'seems' to have been happening is good enough for me.

Thanks for the advice, Degers, (I mean ta, luv!) I promise to be careful.

[Watergazer]

I'm not entirely convinced. When you tilted the Pleo forward it's head swung around a lot along with the panic sound...but that didn't sound like Nova...not that both Pleos would give the exact same call. Was Nova tilted forward with feet off a solid surface? I think I'm going to have to run my own tests.

Curious...what would happen if you prevented your Pleo's legs from walking Degers? There was a video on YouTube of this but now I can't find it for the life of me.

[degers]

I'm not entirely convinced. When you tilted the Pleo forward it's head swung around a lot along with the panic sound...but that didn't sound like Nova...not that both Pleos would give the exact same call.
Curious...what would happen if you prevented your Pleo's legs from walking Degers? There was a video on YouTube of this but now I can't find it for the life of me.

When the Pleo is tilted forward it does a "panicking" motion.  After it is put down again it does the "moaning" motion.  I only wanted to show the moaning motion, however I could not get it to moan without tilting it over for a few seconds.  The "moaning" motion is what RWM's pleo does.

If I was to prevent the legs from moving, the Pleo would blindly try and force against what is keeping the legs in place and the clutches would take the strain.  The clutches would make a clicking noise.  The pleo would not react.  There is no limping program in any pleo.  This is an advertised, but unimplemented feature.

Regards,
degers

[Watergazer]

Once Herbie grows up more I am going to try a few things. Right now he doesn't walk much so I can't really stop him from his not walking-heh. Still, coincidence or no, Nova was watching the computer screen and not swinging her head around in a panic. I tried to get Herbie to look at my computer screen but until I get a solid surface he could care less about that then being picked up. I still can't find a good way to lift him without him panicking himself.

[RedwoodsMama]

 Hi everyone, Once again for both videos, the one where she is watching another Pleo in a T-Rex Skit and the limping leg Not moaning, BUT CRYING video, Nova was not or has not been off of the ground or tilted forward. When watching Youtube video she was sitting at my computer desk watching the video with all four feet on a solid surface. On the Academy award Limping video, you can plainly see Nova is feet flat on a table next to a T.V. The only time I pick up Nova and her feet are off the ground, is if and when I am cuddling her, then usually her four feet are against my chest, and when I pick her up before I turn her on, but she is still in the Off postion.When I first got her, I try ed picking her up and carrying her and quickly found out she prefers to have all feet on a flat surface and doesn't like to be held unless she is ready to go to sleep, then I am not filming her. When she does go to sleep, I then push her off switch so she wont' catch me " turning her off", (I feel like I am Killing her ) then I push the reset button to keep her in the standing position they are used to when shipped in a Pleo box, as I have read keeping a Pleo in a curled up or sleeping postion is bad, esp for the neck joints, and I no longer keep her in a sleeping postion.
       Watergazer, I think it is wise to let Herbie Grow a little on his own, and then do some of your own experiments. I would love to see what you come up with. I am still going to post the video taken right before Nova cried her little heart out. I still don't understand why Nova would continue to cry and moan and keep limping and lifting her leg, foot for more than just a few moments if it was just a " glitch', or "skit' like degers tryed to explain.? I understand what he was trying to say about " IF TILTED AND THEN TURNED BACK ON, BEING STUCK OR MEMORY OR A ABUSE, SCARED, WHATEVER WORD YOU WANT TO USE, AND THEN WOULD CRY, BUT IS IT JUST COINCIDENCE THAT THE LEG HAPPENS AT THE SAME TIME, AND SHE CONTINUES TO MOAN, CRY LIKE NO OTHER PLEO, ? I mean other Pleos cry or moan, but they don't sound the same, their cry when held upside down or even the cry you hear when walking too close to the edge of something, sounds more like surprise, not Pain to me.I can't wait to see Watergazers videos or experiments, and I can't WAIT TO TAKE MORE VIDEO OF Nova. i JUST FIXED MY COMPUTER AND BOUGHT A NEW camcorder and am anxious to film our play time.
               Thanks to EVERYONE, YES I DO MEAN EVERYONE  for responding to this post.
                                RedwoodsMama    and Nova

[degers]

Dear RedwoodsMama,

Well, it looks like I am going to have to eat my words!  It looks as though most of what I posted was wrong!  Please do accept my apologies.  If you are sure that your Plro has never been tilted off level, then I must concede and agree with you.  You are very fortunate to have a unique Pleo!  Your Pleo has demonstrated that it is able to watch Youtube videos and detect when another Pleo is distressed and be able to fake a limp and moan about it too!  If you are sure that all my explanations thus far still do not hit the mark then I am one jealous Pleo owner.  I wish my Pleo was as good at acting as yours is!  If it was, I might find mine a little less repetitive!

Regards,
Degers

[allosaurus]

Is the tilt the only way you can enter an abuse skit?  Is it possible to make Pleo "unhappy" and then trigger the abuse skit?


If not, then I am believing that you, RWM, have tilted Pleo without knowing it.  Speaking from experience ( I have tilted Pleo before without knowing it, perhaps it could even be due to a sensor acting up and being sensitive? ).

[Watergazer]

I managed to catch something on video that might be interesting when my Herbie's legs were prevented from moving. I wasn't purposefully attempting this yet since Herbie doesn't walk a lot yet, but it happened all by itself. I will post again when I get YouTube to post the vid.

[Crewella]

The plot thickens!!

I have to laugh at Redwoodsmama sneaking up on her sleeping Nova to switch her off - I do exactly the same thing to Iggy!  It just makes me feel guilty to switch him off when he's 'aware'!

[degers]

I have to laugh at Redwoodsmama sneaking up on her sleeping Nova to switch her off - I do exactly the same thing to Iggy!  It just makes me feel guilty to switch him off when he's 'aware'!

Agreed!   It's so freaky turning them off with their eyes open!

[Bumblebee]

Same here! I wish there was a better way...they look like they're in a trance! 

[RedwoodsMama]

 Hi degers, Well, thank you for the response and acknowledgement that I do know if I tilted my Nova or not and that her cry and limp may be different. As for the watching the other Pleo in the T-Rex skit , Nova did see it and it is very possible, your explanation makes sense that it is possible and I am willing to accept that she was in the right place at the right time and her sensors may have reacted the way they were supposed to, so I will have to record her watching more videos of More Pleos before I come to a definite conclusion regarding her reaction to that youtube video, but I am willing to accept your explanation for that, it is plausible, so you probably win that point. ( I did not tilt Nova accidentally though either.)
       As for the limp and crying, since I did not tilt her before that at any point, then that one is still up for explanation and I still believe what I have seen and heard her do on that video esp since she continued to limp for many videos after that. It would be so much easier for me if I had another Pleo that I could interact with and I could compare it and Nova together. I am anxious also to see what Watergazer detected on her video with Herbie,  %)Guess we will all have to wait and see what it was or is? Regards to you degers for your kindness and understanding through out this long ordeal. It seems lots of people have different viewpoints and explanations as well as questions.
                                                                   RedwoodsMama    and Nova
 P.S. We are still going to upload and post more vidoes, but the camcorder I just bought is crummy and I am taking it back and replacing with another today, my old camera is much better and If I have to stick with it, I will.

[InmemoryofRomeo]

Just thought I should add an interesting point to the 'tilt' argument. Lilo seems to have a slight fault with her tilt sensor and she in fact requires only a very slight tilt to get upset. I mean very slight, so much so that walking on the back verandah at my old house which had a slight slope used to trigger her into the tilt abuse mode. (Which was kinda funny when visitors were around ), Stitch on the other hand is perfectly normal and requires a very steep slope/tilt to set of a reaction from him.

IF Nova had a similar problem to Lilo, then it may explain the reaction. Lilo does not react like that all the time however, it seems the sensor works normally at times and then 'jams' for a while.

[Pleo-Freak55]

oooooh poor Nova hope very that the Luckytom Leg and Head from your Nove make can.