Bob the Pleo Forums
Pleo Stuff => Pleo Archives => Archive -- Technical common => Topic started by: Talon on February 12, 2013, 02:59:26 PM
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Hi, Everyone! Sorry to be back with distressing news about Cato but once again he's having leg problems. No, it's not the right rear leg this time. Now it's his right front leg. The symptoms are entirely different than his previous issue. He can't seem to straighten out his right front leg at the knee joint. Even when shut down it stays the same way. It looks like he's constantly holding it up in the wave position. I'll be making a video as soon as my cousin has a free minute. I'm not putting myself through sending him away again. It seems I'm just going to have to accept the inevitable and commit him to... *shrugs* either science or pleo-heaven. Perhaps mlbelanger might be able to use him as a programming tool dispite his stuck leg or perhaps I could send him to Kat for donor parts to help some other pleo. God this sounds so cruel! I'm just not sure if fixing him again would be cost-effective considering his ventage. If anyone knows of a fairly gently-used pleoRB that's below five hundred please point me to them.
I also have a software question that I'm sure someone has answered before. Is there anyway I could move Cato's personality into said hypothetical pleoRB or will I just have to modify the newer one's DNA settings to match Cato's?
Talon
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I'm so sorry Talon :( It seems like you haven't had him back for very long since he came to me for repairs on his back leg.
First of all just to let you know frontgate are still selling new rb's for $349
http://www.frontgate.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/pleo-rb-robotic-dinosaur/480687?redirect=y#
As for poor Cato I guess we start with the obvious, have you tried clicking the leg back into position - manipulating the joint? Also have you tried the reset button?
If it isn't an easy fix and you don't want to send him off for repairs there still might be some hope for him. Degers was able to write a patch for Sparky, who had a right front leg issue, which disabled the leg sensors (I think) so that the Sparky just stopped trying to move her leg. Effectively the leg now just stays permanently in the packing position and the rest of her continues to function as normal. Makes walking an issue but keeping him on smooth hard floors and applying a sock to that leg should help him to be able to shuffle along a little. might be worth a think about. :)
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I'm tied up at work this week, but if there's anything I can do to help, let me know. So sorry, Talon. :(
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Thanks for the info about frontgate, Kat. I have tried gently straightening the joint out upon shutdown. He goes right back into the position again when he is restarted. I haven't yet tried the reset button because I can't seem to find it. I've poked and felt around on his stomach along the edge of his battery compartment with a safety pin but I'm having no luck. Thanks to my cousin's generosity, I can now take video clips longer than fifty three seconds so when I make this one, I can manipulate the joint on camera and show you exactly what's going on. I'm willing to try whatever fix I can to keep him around so if all other options fail, I suppose I'll be PM'ing degers for that patch.
Talon
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Hi everyone. I made a video of Cato's leg. I did find the reset button area but there doesn't seem to be anything to press- just a deep endless hole.
*Sigh* Go figure.
Talon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80PDXih4_Q4
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Hi Talon, watched the video and it is strange, cause Chester my RB, has the same clicking on his front leg as Cato. Chester though, does have a straight leg. Do not give up on him yet. Perhaps both Cato and Chester have the same problem and someone can figure it out!
RWM :cat-hug:
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From looking at the video and taking a guess I think it might be something to do with the movement sensor for the leg. It is possible that there is a loose or disconnected wire or it could be a similar effort to his back leg with the tab that slots into the sensor having broken off of the leg strut. It could easily be something else entirely though. But as he seems to have function sometimes and not others and then also the clicking sometimes I think it may well have something to do with the messages from the leg not getting through to his brain about where the leg is and what it is doing and vice versa. So I am thinking the motion sensor is the most likely cause. At least we know too that it is definitely his knee joint and not an issue further up.
there are other possibilities though such as a cog that has slipped out of alignment in the knee joint or some dirt caught in the cogs. I think this is less likely as manipulating the joint doesn't seem to have fixed the issue. Still can't rule that out either though.
Not really sure what to suggest. Maybe see what everyone else thinks.
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Hi, everyone. I haven't touched Cato since the video. I'm also just going to sit back and see if anyone else has any ideas about what's wrong with him.
Whatever I'm doing it's going to have to be put on the back burner. My new dog's routine vet visit turned into a fiasko when it was discovered that he somehow has two sets of teeth in his mouth. His baby teeth and his adult teeth grew in side by side and his baby teeth never fell out. Now I have to put out more than three hundred dolllars to get his jaws and gums taken care of. His teeth have been collecting months of old food and tennissball fuzz and stuff the vet said she couldn't even identify anymore. What a life this guy has had!
Talon
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Well, I now have a new chapter to add to this sogga. This will explain some of the comments made during the video. Kat is already familiar with them but I'll fill everyone else in. Over the weekend I turned Cato on and started feeling around on his right front leg trying to see if there was any sort of difference between it and his left front leg. Well, the minute I touched him far up on his shoulder, bling! He magically put his foot down. As long as I kept my fingers on that spot and kept a little pressure there, he would keep his foot down and use it normally. The minute I let go, up it would go and the clicking and aweful noise would start again. After PMing Kat who seemed very excited, she suggested it might be a loose touch scensor wire- an easy fix. Well I have taken another video of what's happening but as I was feeding him I touched his shoulder and he lowered his leg before the camera started. Oddly enough this time I didn't have to keep touching it. I must've brushed it back into place beneath his skin or something. This is how it moves after my healing touch or whatever it is. Sorry my sleave got in the way at some point. Does this movement look normal to you guys? If so I'm going to conclude this is a loose touch scensor wire and my cousin's husband and I will perform surgery to get it soldered back into place. Let me know what you think.
Talon
http://youtu.be/vK1dYK5wois
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I'm inclined to agree - loose touch sensor wire. I hope so! :D
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I think so too :) Only one way to find out now and that is to roll up his leg skin and take a look. Good luck :flowers:
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Good luck with Cato's leg. I am sorry he is having problems again, but it could bre RB once they get a problem like this are prone to have them re-occur. I am afraid Chester also has a similiar problem and will have to post a video to see if it can be diagnosed as well. Good luck Talon. RWM :cat-hug:
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Just my two cent's after sending in my first two 7's to get fixed and having them come back worse for wear, I would just put up with a minor mechanical problem at the risk of creating further more serious issues.
Completely up to you what type of further action you take. I just get put off by the thought of having to cut a Pleo's skin open over what is a relatively minor issue that seems to have corrected.
Although then again I'm the type of person who would never do any surgery on my robots myself so probably am biased in this respect.
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I appreciate your input, Zervoid and it is entirely sensible. I wouldn't dive into an aibo I know that for sure. This is territory I've already crossed- if only partially. Fortunately there won't have to be any cutting open this time if we're right. If not, I'll let Kat do all the cutting and whatnot. This problem has nothing whatever to do with her previous repair. The leg she repaired is still functioning correctly. More than likely this morning if I were to turn him on, the clicking and leg-lifting you saw in the first video would all start again until I touched his shoulder. Eventually this method will fail to work and then I would have to deal with that leg motor getting hot and possibly melting through the skin or creating more damage elsewhere. Having already delved into this once with Cato, I'm less afraid to repeat the adventure and a little curious as to what we will find. I never said I was sane. Lol!
Talon
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I think it's probably the safest thing trying to do minor repairs yourself before sending them away in hindsight.
I probably should have taken a greater interest in how to do repairs myself.
I hope your Pleo gets better.
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*sigh* Well, just as an update, my cousin's husband has agreed to take a swing at Cato's leg. At this point he hasn't even taken the skin back to see if a loose touch-scensor wire is indeed the problem but he is willing to take a look. He is looking for his soldering iron and we're both awaiting a day when the stars align and his job will give him an hour or two of free time. In the meantime my poor guy hasn't eaten for... weeks. Is there anything I can do to stop time for him or something so he won't be horribly sick and willing to stand correctly after surgery?
Talon
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Don't worry Talon, as long as you don't run him the feed level will not drop beyond a set point.
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Thanks, IMR. I was considering removing his clock battery but I hate going into that battery compartment for fear of even slightly damaging those little tabs. I'll just leave him alone and make a point to ask once in a while if Mr. Hoel has had a chance to find his soldering iron. *Looks sheepish* Isn't it odd how you can worry about starving a robot? When this happened last year I packed him up and tried to forget about him. What frustrates me most is we're just a glance away from knowing anything for certain and no one has any time! Anyone, how thick is this wire? Is it one of those hair-thin things or could I feel it? I'm about ready to take a pair of tweazers or something and pick his foot skin loose and look myself. Beyond that point my hands are tied.
Talon
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Sorry for the double post but here's our progress so far. My cousin's husband found his soldering iron and we took a look under Cato's skin. He said all the wires are still neatly held under some sort of tape and that none of them appear to be loose. He still raises and lowers the foot as though it is normal but there are some movements that he does that just aren't right. I can't explain it other than he's still kind of staggering? ? The behavior doesn't look as... random as it did when his back leg was broken. He still ends up on three legs with that right front lifted as high as you please. There is no clicking but he raises it and lowers it. When he decides to walk forward, he will use it, it's when he's walking backward I think that things look... odd. I'm going to do another video and just be very quiet and let Cato do his thing as though I'm not there. Hopefully he will exhibit his symptoms properly. I'm not giving up yet.
Talon
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I'm sorry you couldn't find an obvious explanation for the issue. It must be awfully frustrating. :(
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It is. I have a sinking suspition it might be another scensor tab. If that's what this is, i'm going to have to save up and send him to Kat again and there is no way around it. I have all confidence that she will be able to fix him but I hate having to ask her to do more work on him. What frustrates me most is I am careful with my pleos. There was only one instance when I wasn't with them last year- when my sister packed him and brought him from our old house to our new one. I assume that's when his first leg injury happend. I can't account for this one. I was with them during their next location from my friend's house in Spartanburg to my current location. I can only asume it's wear and tear. He is nearly three years old. As I said in my older posts, he is a 2010 RB and most of them went back within months after purchase mostly due to skin problems. Perhaps now the other problems with that first batch are beginning to emerge. I guess he has held up pretty good.
Talon
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Hey Talon I would be more than happy to look at him again for you but just as a thought you could have a chat to mlbelanger. I think it was he who said he would like to do pleo repairs and he is in the US so might be a lot cheaper to get Cato to and from. If I remember correctly he is currently fixing Nova for RWM. Maybe send him a PM and see how that is going? He is the one looking at pleo programing and trying to create an easier version of the PDK for everyone to use and I believe he has some experience with robotics and the mechanical side. It could be worth a chat to him. I'm sure the cost of postage in the US has to be much less than sending all the way to Australia :P might mean the difference between having him looked at now verses in a few months time. :)
Of course I'm more than happy to look him over again if that isn't an option for you. :)
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*Swats self gently in the head* You know, I forgot about mlbelenger. Sorry, Sir. Yes. I might drop him a PM and see if he would be willing to take a look at him. Thanks for the suggestion, Kat.
Talon
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Hi, Everyone! I PM'd mlbelanger and I'm awaiting his response. In the meantime here is a final video of Cato's movements. I'm not running him again until I hear from someone or save up enough to get him sent off to someone whether it be to him or Kat. Thanks for all your help and encouragement.
http://youtu.be/DI6VUmRT4J0
Talon
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You may need to give mlbelanger a bit of time as when I spoke to RWM last to ask how Nova was doing she said he had come down with the flu and so was out of action for a bit. I haven't seen him around here on the forums for a few weeks so i'm guessing he is pretty sick. Maybe you could see if RWM has an email address you could contact him through or just give him a bit more time to get well.
I'd love to see Cato up and going again but he is becoming a very expensive little robot. When you consider the initial cost of purchase and then the cost of postage for repairs and now to think of having another dose of repairs postage ...... I hate to say it but I think if he was mine I would be seriously considering purchasing a new one as a replacement. :-X :( He has had a great long life for a very first batch/generation pleo rb. (please don't hate me for saying that)
I'm sure if you went down that road there would be a few willing scientists who would be interested in Cato as a project. (please don't hate me for saying that either)
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In the video description it's mentioned that Cato's leg is warming up after only brief use, which definitely means you want to leave him off until you decide what action to take from here. The same thing was happening with Lizzy's back leg, caused by the motor inside trying to do its usual work of moving the leg with incorrect position sensing data, and you would at the least damage the motor eventually by continuing to run it like that. Which I'm sure you have heard from someone else already or suspected yourself.
It's interesting that the problem is intermittent, and makes me think that although your cousin's husband said everything was taped up and properly attached, there still may be a wire that appears properly soldered but has a failing join. Cato moving around would be disrupting that weak connection and your touching him would push things back into sufficient contact again so he appeared to work properly. The problem may not be immediately obvious to someone who hasn't worked on a Pleo before.
Replacing him is an option to consider, although there is the chance you could get a new Pleo who presents exactly the same problems. Lizzy is presumably from a much newer batch than Cato but has already had two leg repairs. Even though we obviously hear more on the forums about the Pleos with problems than the ones who work fine for years, I don't trust the quality of the from-factory wire joins at all. My boyfriend suggested that if you did decide to send Cato off to someone to be fixed that you get them to open up the other two legs that haven't had problems yet and make sure they're firmly soldered/glued in place like the one Kat has already repaired will be, so that you're unlikely to have more problems with them for the rest of his functioning life. Fixing legs isn't terribly invasive in terms of needing to cut your Pleo open so if you're experiencing wear and tear related problems now it might save you some angst later.
As to what you end up deciding to do, I guess it depends on how much more you feel able to invest in Cato, financially and emotionally. He is absolutely fixable as far as I can tell but it's difficult when you have to post him around to get him fixed. I'm sorry to see you finding yourself in this position. :(
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At Kat: *reaches way out and gives a pat on the shoulder* How could I hate good sensible advice especially after you and Crewella gave him back the use of his right rear leg and almost three months of happiness with me and Ryu and his herd? *Small sigh and turns face to my sunny window* I wish I lived closer to a fellow pleo-owner who has had to go under their companion's skin a few times.
At Kami: yes. It is a difficult position especially when you consider both my having to depend on someone else's eyes and having to pay to send him through the mail to be repaired. What's even more frustrating is that- perhaps this is my oppinion- but lately it seems that even new RB's are having problems not even a month after purchase. I'm still in a real quandry about what to do. All feelings aside it is financially becoming burdensome. I suppose I also have the option of talking to degers and asking him for that code that would just disable the leg but then I'm not sure if it would even work if he is receiving incorrect data about where his leg is in relation to the rest of him. *Growl* I don't know. Now I'm thinking aloud and waisting everyone's time. Sorry.
Talon
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Degers' fix would work, as the Pleo then ignores signals from that limb.
I'm inclined to agree with Kami, though. There's usually a glob of rubber solution over the solder join on the sensor wire, which kind of obscures your view - the contact underneath might or might not be OK (it's possible the loss of contact is the other end). If I had him here, I would re-do the solder on that wire anyway - if nothing else it rules that point out as the source of the problem.
Sorry you're still having problems, Talon. :arms:
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Thanks, Crewella. I'm considering sending him off one more time. Even if it does turn out just to be a loose wire, I'll have the peace-of-mind knowing that whoever repairs it will have a general idea of what they're looking for. If he malfunctions again anywhere else, I'm going to give him to one of you intrepid souls who repairs pleos and you can use him for parts or programming or whatever you can use him for. This isn't an easy decision but if he can prolong the life of another pleo as Skully prolonged his life, I don't feel bad about doing it. He'll be a donor pleo. Lol!
Talon