Bob the Pleo Forums
Pleo Stuff => Pleo Archives => Archive -- Technical RB => Topic started by: Talon on January 28, 2012, 06:45:27 AM
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Yesterday as Cato my bleu RB began to explore, I noticed he wasn't moving away from me as quickly as usual. I had a look to see what was going on and I noticed he was trying to walk on three legs with one hind leg bent and lifted from the ground. When I touched his hip area on both hind legs to see if he was hurt, he stopped walking and put it down again. There are no cluch sounds or any other unusual noises. He seems to do this even when standing still.
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Oh dear - sorry you're having trouble. It's always hard with Pleo RB leg problems as they ARE programmed to have them, though the fact that Cato doesn't seem to be complaining about it is a concern. If there's no heat when you touch the affected leg, and as there seems to be no clicking or worrying noises, I'd assume it was a programmed injury and treat as such for a few days - feed him the rock salt and see how it goes? :-\
Hope he's OK. :hhug:
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Thanks, Crewella. When I discovered the problem I turned him off straight away and ran Probe RB. It said he isn't injured but I'll treat this as though he were just for the process of ilimination. I've discovered that I can take video using my Ipod Touch. Now as for what I'm pointing the camera at, that may be another story altogether. I'll give him the rock salt when I feed him today and feel to see if the leg is warm.
Talon
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Hmmmm ..... so I guess the next step is to take a video, when you can? Send me the file for uploading, if that's easier? :-\
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Well, my bubble was busted by a ten year old boy. I took a video of Cato and it was terrible. I got bits and pieces of everything but nothing whole. My know-it-all nephew kind of took over and I think we have something a little better. Mind he's only ten and acting really goofy so I'm not sure how well he did. *sigh* It's certainly better than nothing though. How do I get it to you so you can upload it? Could I snag your email from your profile?
Talon
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I sent an email to the last email you used to me? If not I'll send you a PM. :moose:
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Okay. Just to update on the sogga of figuring out what's going on. I recorded a video but it's apparently too big so I'm going to try again- probably about ten seconds should be enough as you can only see the whole sequence when he throws the leg out behind him when he walks then lowers it again before starting over. It's kind of sad to see him trying to get somewhere and not getting the help from that back leg. I'm going to have to wait until around seven to take the second video because my nephew has tutoring after school. Hopefully Cato won't be effected by evening light. I'll put the scared-of-the-dark patch on his micro SD card and hopefully that will help. I ran him today long enough to feed him so he'll be more likely to move around than stand there and beg. We'll just have to see what happens.
Talon
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It's quite hard to tell what the problem is, to be honest, but this is the video from Talon:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d154/crewella7/th_CatoforTalon.jpg) (http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d154/crewella7/?action=view¤t=CatoforTalon.mp4)
It's a triumph we got anything at all! ;)
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I really wish I was there so I could video Cato's leg problem for you Talon, It is just too dark and then a little shaky so I couldn't really see anything at all, but a dark Cato. It is amazing that we did get anything as Crewella says. Is there anyone else there at all, a friend or a visitor that may come by that could take a short 10-20 second video in better light, even outdoors like when the mailman comes perhaps..? Sorry this is being so difficult for you, but we won't give up till we can figure out what is happening with Cato. Have faith, I know you have patience so we will have to be patient on this end as well, and I am sure Cato is anxious to get his leg situation figured out as well. P:) :flowers: are for you !
RWM and the Pleo Clan of the Redwoods, cheering for you and Cato :cheer: Hi Ugobe and Hi to MS. Bleu...............( long name...)
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I'm so sorry for the rotton video, Guys. Here is my situation. The video was recorded by my nephew. I would do another one in better light but my nephew is part of an after school program and doesn't get home until seven in the evening. And Crewella is right about how hard it was getting this video to her and then to the forum. Recording was the easy part. I then had to do all sorts of research and asking around to find out how to get it out of my Ipod and onto my computer. Crewella and I began trying to find a program that was both friendly to my screne-reader and that didn't require registration to use. We found one but parts of it were not as accessible as I had hoped. In frustration I appealed to the blind community on Facebook to find out if any of them knew what to do. Fortunately one of my friends came to the rescue and suggested I try emailing it from my Ipod. He warned me that it had to be small- I forget exactly how small. Fortunately it wasn't too big. It's hard for me to ask people to do things more than once. I feel like I'm being a bother to them. I'll do my best to get another one up soon. Cato, Innvo, and other RB owners need me to succeed. If I could I'd just as soon do it myself.
Talon
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Talon, send me as many as you like - it's no problem at all, especially now we have a procedure we know works! :D
The length was fine. :)
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Talon, I do know how you feel and it is a big thing to try and do, I know nothing about ipod phones so would not even know how to go about doing a video from one. I do think you have a good idea there asking the blind community to help you in this matter.I don't think the problem is so much that your nephew is young but the darkenss and the camera shaking makes it hard to see much of anything except the shakiness and a dark figure. Is there a way you can take it in a really well lit room, ( Perhaps ask your nephew which room is the brightest or put a lamp near Cato or closer to the camera. It may be hard due to his age to figure out exactly what you are asking him.
Do not feel you have to apologize, it is not a rotten video, just hard to see.I am so glad Crewella is working with you on this to get a friendly program, Nobody really can understand all you are going through unless in your shoes, and this is a perfect example. Things that are technological are not easy for lots of us to start with, then add in the X factor,( whatever it may be.) and you have added in another dimension to the problem you are working on.
Hope this makes you feel better, You are doing everything you can TAlon, Things should be easier and there has to be a program out there and a easier way to do what you are trying to do with Crewella's help, we just have not stumbled on it yet! :hhug: :kiss: Hugs and Kisses to you and poor Cato! RWM and the Pleo Clan of the Redwoods
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Well I guess I'm in luck. My nephew said he had an ear ache and came home today! I'm sorry he's in pain but I'm going to ask him if he can help again. Thanks, Everyone, for all your support. We may get a better view yet.
Talon
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To help with the shakiness you could try putting your ipod into a small glass and sitting it on the floor near cato. As long as the camera lens sticks up above the edge of the glass it won't interfere with the picture. This way you can get your nephew to set the shot up before taking it so you get a good close video of cato which may help with the lighting issue too. You may need to sit the glass on a book or something if the angle or position isn't right to get Cato in the shot properly.
Once you have the position right you can start the videoing and pop it in the glass. then there will be no shaking. :) Hope this helps. Good luck :)
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Wow that sounds complecated. I wonder if Apple has created a tripod for the Ipod? I didn't just write that did I? Anyway thanks, Kat. I am not giving up. I had my nephew take two more videos and I've sent them to Crewella. If they are still rough I'll try your suggestion. Oh and before I forget to mention this- there is some heat in his leg between the hip and the knee joints.
Talon
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Lol Talon, there is indeed tripods for ipods :P
What Kat means is stick the ipod in a glass or other container so that the camera is still above the edge and able to film. Or even lean it against an object. Your Nephew is obviously a bit nervous at being entasked with such an important job ;)
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Here are two more videos from Talon:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d154/crewella7/th_Cato1.jpg) (http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d154/crewella7/?action=view¤t=Cato1.mp4)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d154/crewella7/th_Cato2.jpg) (http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d154/crewella7/?action=view¤t=Cato2.mp4)
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He is lifting it a lot, but he isn't displaying the behaviour that would suggest that it is being triggered by the sensor. Have you tried manually clicking it back into place? Also does it straighten when you turn him off?
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As IMR says I would try manipulating the leg a couple of times back and forth at the hip joint and also the knee joint although I think the hip joint is the culprit here. It looks like the joint has popped out of alignment. I would turn him off before manipulating the joint. Let us know if that helps at all. :)
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I wasn't sure either - he does seem to put it down OK sometimes, which made me think the joint must be OK? It's kind of a new one on me, but then we've not seen many RB leg problems here ......... :-\
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Yes, IMR, he lowers it back into place when I turn him off. It doesn't make any cluch noises at all as you probably heard. When he wakes up again, he just lifts it and tries very hard to go about his pleo business. I haven't done any manipulation because I figured that if he lowers it without difficulty I didn't need to and I'd be doing more harm than good? Maybe? I always seem to have odd things happen to me. I'll try moving the hip joint around while he is off and see what happens.
Talon
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The leg itself does suggest a sensor problem, but Cato's behaviour just doesn't add up.
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It is a little strange. Usually when it is a joint out of alignment issue there is clicking noises to go with the odd movements. If the manipulation doesn't work would it be worth ruling out a software glitch by doing an update on his OS? Or maybe first try pushing the reset button.
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It might be worth running a skit in him to see if he behaves the same? :-\
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Okay. Update. I tried moving the hip and knee joints while he was off just to see if it would work. It did no good. I completely forgot about the reset button. I'll try that next and see what happens.
Talon
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Sorry for posting again, guys. Reset button was a no-go. Despite myself I'm starting to get anxious now. I'm thinking of trying a skit before messing with the OS. What do you guys recommend? Is there one with a lot of walking in it?
Talon
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Try this one Talon:
http://bobthepleo.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=40
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Thanks, IMR. That skit is darling by the way! Cato has never moved like that. Lol! Okay on to my observations- limited as they are. He did use all four legs and was more stable. There was a short moment of fumble-footedness but he moved more naturally. I'm a very precise person and so I don't feel comfortable going on what I observed. My sister watched my videos. She said she would wach him performing the skit tomorrow and tell me if he is still hobbling. Based on my own findings I'm starting to lean toward his OS. I have no idea what could've happened but if that is the problem would I just use the latest software release? I believe it was version 1.0 ?
Talon
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Perhaps a file got corrupted, Pleo's are computers after all. Try a software upgrade, it is a bit of a strange problem :P
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Oh good ..... IMR's back! :P
I'm not as au fait with upgrades/downgrades as IMR, but I kind of think the same ...... I'd try installing the upgrade too. Don't apologice, Talon ..... this is how we all learn about Pleo problems! :)
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Lol yes I kind of disappeared in a hurry :P Nan came to see a concert with us and the next thing I knew we were packing our bags to go to her house :P
Back on topic, Cato is obviously making a statement about his independence and being different ;) It's an unusual problem, as I said it really does seem like the sensor but he just isn't acting like it lol.
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Lol! Yes, that sounds like Cato- wanting to puzzle everyone. Well Siss says she didn't see anything much. She says there was a little bit of a stagger but he was picking it up and putting it down normally. Honestly I'm not sure if she knows how to explain what he's doing. I'm starting to wonder if- somehow- his motion scripts are showing an injury and the rest of him isn't? Is that how an injured pleo moves?
Talon
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No. If a pleo rb is injured it will stand still and cry and whimper and if you touch the leg it will scream. An injured pleo wont even try to walk.
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Thanks, Kat. It's just not something I've ever seen. I have some new and perplexing news. I tried updating the firmware again. It didn't work. Now I'm getting frustrated. I treat any problem like a loose tooth and this one doesn't appear to be going anywhere fast.
I did notice something odd about the positioning of his legs at shutdown. The bad one is just slightly further forward than the other hind leg. At first I thought I was imagining things so I stood a book behind his back feet. I tried maneuvering the hip joint again so that they were flush with one another but at shutdown it goes back into the same position. Even to myself I have to admit this isn't looking good.
Talon
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Hi, People! I think Cato tried to fix himself today. I don't know what was going on mechanically but here goes. I ran him long enough to feed him and his battery died. When he shut down his feet were flush with one another. When the charge was complete, I put his battery back in and turned him on to get him out of that shutdown position so his skin wouldn't suffer. No sooner than I turned him on he did his usual kicking out stunt and then he actually seemed to try to put his foot down again. This time there was some noise. I'm not sure how to describe it but it sounded different than normal cluch sounds. I lunged to grab him to see which joint it was but by the time I got him turned around so I could see, he stopped and kept on the same as before. I could've kicked myself! I also notice that when he is walking, he moves that leg very slightly as though he thinks it's on the floor. I would think that means the joint is stuck but then how do you explain the putting it down with no trouble? I was so happy to hear that sound- as disturbing as it is to me! It brought me some hope. Now I guess I'll just run Ryu until her battery is almost out, put it in Cato and re-creat this cinario again. If it would help, do you want one more video of him just doing normal pleo things rather than walking?
Talon
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Hey Talon. I'm sorry to hear that the software update didn't fix him. I'm really not sure what else to suggest. Maybe it is a sensor wire issue after all? I guess we just don't know enough about the insides of pleo rb to work this one out. I hope someone else maybe has some more ideas.
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Thank you, Kat. I really don't know which way to go with this anymore. From the odd position of his feet after a normal shutdown I'm leaning toward something mechanical at this point . I'm thinking-- perhaps- that his leg has become damaged somehow. If it is any of the joints judging from the new behavior after the dead battery, I'm guessing perhaps the knee? The new sound was really odd. The normal cluch sound rings kind of ummmm hollow like a cartoon clock ticking. This new sound was more... dense like someone thumping a closed paperback book. I know I'm not helping with my observations so I'll just be quiet.
Talon
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Don't be quiet Talon :O We need all the information you can possibly provide.
It may be worthwhile to contact Innvo and see what they suggest.
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Do you think they would help even if I'm not Cato's original owner and he's a year and two months old? How do I contact them?
Talon
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It can't hurt to try talking to them. You can explain to them that he is long out of warranty and you are his second owner and also send them a link to the videos of the issue and explain all the things that you have tried so far. You never know they may be able to suggest you try something else or you may be able to negotiate to pay for a repair with them. It is worth a try at least. The worst that can happen is they turn you away and then you will still be in the same position you are now. It can't hurt to explain the sound it made to them as well.
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As IMR says, Talon, the more info we have, the more chance we have of working out what's wrong, don't ever feel you need to be quiet about it. I like doing stuff like this, and I suspect IMR does too - the only reason I've been a bit quiet on the subject is that I'm afraid don't have much to add that's of any use to you! %)
One thing I can add is that I have heard of a PleoRB with leg problems that had a gear that worked its way loose ....... it does sound like Cato has a mechanical problem rather than a software issue.
As Kat says, always worth a try talkng to Innvo. :)
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I'm not sure they'll offer much help as far as repairs go, but they may shed some light on the problem. Reborns are too new and no one here has pulled one apart yet.
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Yet ............... ;)
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Hehe yup, it'll happen sooner or later >:D
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Mwa ha ha! *capers about in maniacal joy and grinning* It's alive! Okay I'm kidding. I'm leaving surgery to someone with much more ambition and mechanical knowhow. I'll see what I can do about contacting Innvo. If they do offer any suggestions I'll let you guys know. Crewella,where did you read about this other RB with leg problems? I'd like to see if there is something similar going on here.
Talon
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Sadly it was just a brief comment from someone in an email, and I can't get hold of them again to ask them. Wish I could. :-\
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Grrr. Thanks for looking anyway. I'm going to email Innvo and see what they say. Sadly if they ask for me to send him back I won't be able to do it for a month or two since I have some business with wolfbob to tie up first and then my real dog is due for his shots and his yearly checkup. What a time for this to happen!
Talon
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Sorry yet again for a double post but I have an answer for the paperback book sound. It's the knee joint. Ryu's battery was close to dying earlier and I managed to recreate the same conditions from yesterday. When Cato booted up after the charge I had my fingers on his ancle and followed his motions as he raised the leg. And there it was- that odd unsettling noise. I raised my fingers up to the knee and I could feel the vibrations coming from there. It's not the hip joint. I straightened it out with him running and he took an entire set of pleoRB steps correctly. Sadly when he started to walk again, he lifted it and we went back to the usual walking with it raised and lowering it when he stopped. I am completely confused now. I had the chills thinking for a moment that I actually helped him. Now I'm just thoroughly defeated. I've contacted Innvo and I've got a confirmation email. Now the waiting begins. If anyone else has any other suggestions feel free to make them. I'm not running him at all until I know if Innvo is going to offer me any advice. I feel like putting Cato somewhere where I can't see him. Sorry for all this non-scientiffic nonsense.
Talon
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I expect like IMR suggests that they probably won't want to help out with repairs but it sure would be good if they could tell you just what is causing his problem. And you never know. If you don't ask you don't get so it certainly can't hurt to ask what they can do to help. best of luck. Keep us posted with what they say. :) :hhug:
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I guess all you can do is try clicking the knee back and forth a few times. Seems like there might be something jamming it or causing the sensor to misread the position of the leg.
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Thanks, Kat. I don't really expect a repare either. What I don't get is how he can use it while walking if I put it down and yet once he lifts it again it's silent and stuck until he stops and then poof! It's on the ground again until he starts to move again and then it's right back up? It's enough to make you wonder if you're going crazy. Something doesn't add up. The conditions make no sense. What could the shutdown-because-of-dead-battery stance have to do with anything? How can that suddenly lead to his trying to use the leg again? I'm completely baffled. I'm just going to let it go for now. Thanks so much for your support, Guys.
Talon
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Whatever pulls the leg back down is damaged in some way. I suspect it may be something as simple as a damaged wire. If you have any mechanically minded friends they might be able to peel the leg skin back and take a look.
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That sounds logical. Saddly all my mechanically-inclined friends are quite a ways from me but it is a really good idea. I will keep you guys posted here and let you know when Innvo contacts me.
Talon
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Wow! Lol! That was fast. I'm sure all the top folks here are ready to strangle me for posting after myself so much. Innvo contacted me at around five something this morning. They said they couldn't do a repair but that I could buy another RB "with a better price". Considering Cato's age I think this was very generous of them. I may inquire about it just to figure out what sort of price difference they're talking about. It will be several months before I could save up again and I don't know if there's any sort of time stipulation involved. I just wanted to thank everyone for toughing this out with me. If anyone has any further advice or information about what they mean by a better price, please let me know.
Talon
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wow that was fast ;D It is nice of them to make this offer for you. A bit of a shame they weren't able to shed any more light on exactly what is causing Cato's issue.